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20 September 2011 @ 07:27 am
 
As of today, "Don't Ask, Don't tell" is repealed. About damn time, too. What a stupid and jack-assed policy.
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freyisfreyis on September 20th, 2011 11:32 am (UTC)
Woo! That's awesome news.
(Deleted comment)
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 20th, 2011 04:00 pm (UTC)
Why was it stupid and jack-assed?
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Rollarchmage on September 20th, 2011 05:38 pm (UTC)
Because who one chooses to love and fuck makes absolutely no difference to whether or not they should be allowed to serve and protect their country.
Peggy Barattopetalla on September 20th, 2011 07:41 pm (UTC)
CHEERS!
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 12:17 am (UTC)
You do realize that DADT was the first stepping stone towards homosexual acceptance and that prior to that homosexuals weren't allowed to serve at all, right?
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: Scream (FMJ)archmage on September 21st, 2011 11:22 am (UTC)
Yep, and that was stupid, too. Apparently, we did not learn anything from previous decades of pointless discriminations on gender and race that were eventually shot down. Our response was not to step up and move on but to cover a completely pointless restriction with something as asinine as DADT.

Was it a stepping stone to homosexual acceptance? Possibly. Was it still completely dumb? You bet. Should it have never been an issue in the first place? Absolutely.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 12:19 pm (UTC)
You really think after "previous decades of pointless discriminations on gender and race" that Clinton could go directly from "NO FAGS" to "FABULOUS" in an institution so ingrained with their own culture as the armed forces?

Possibly a stepping stone? Possibly? Yea, okay, whatever. Maybe we can discuss this again when you're not blinded by your passion for the topic.
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: Wrong!archmage on September 21st, 2011 12:42 pm (UTC)
Could he? Sure. Would the armed forces have choked? Probably. Does this mean it would have been wrong to do so? Nope. "Stuck in the past" is no reason to continue to allow something that isn't right. It was "ingrained in the culture" that women were inferior to men, until we got it through our heads that this wasn't so. It was "ingrained in the culture" that anyone who wasn't white was a second-class citizen, until we stopped being a bunch of assholes and moved on. So, here we are again with a new issue that the Conservative/Old Guard-type thinking wants to use to feel superior to someone. Wake up to history, boys.

And yes, 'possibly'. As in it may have been a step, but that doesn't make it the right step or even a good step. "OK, well, we decided to allow you can serve your country like a first-class citizen, but we aren't going to allow you to express yourself like a first-class citizen. Now, go defending a system that shuns you!" Is this the American Way? Sadly, it seems to be, but that's not the American Ideal, nor is it a good thing. Go on, show me how sexual orientation is in any way a valid criterion for whether or not someone can defend the country.

I prefer to think I'm enlightened by passion. We can always return to this when you aren't blinded by apathy.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 01:11 pm (UTC)
"Does this mean it would have been wrong to do so? Nope."

That line right there shows that you really have no clue about integration of policy, especially within the armed forces.

Look Frank, I'm not saying anything bad against homosexuals. They were there when I was active duty, they have always been there, they will always be there, and for the majority of us, we really didn't give a damn as long as the mission was first priority. I also am not supporting DADT itself, however DADT was the beginning of the acceptance movement within the DoD, an institution known for making changes based on geologic time rather than actual time. Look at the Black/White situation in the US. How long did that take? Yet just because you feel allowing gays to serve openly is "right" you expect that change to be made overnight without anything leading up to it? Sure, we can both agree that DADT itself was not a good policy, but it laid the groundwork for what happened yesterday so it must be appreciated for what it actually was. Baby steps Frank. Baby steps. And on that note, any step towards an eventual goal is by definition a right step

You can feel "enlightened by passion" all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're not looking at the big picture, and until you do your enlightenment leads nowhere but within, and that doesn't do squat for anyone else.

Apathetic I am not. Analytical and objective, that I am.
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: Burn The Worldarchmage on September 21st, 2011 01:52 pm (UTC)
The difference here is that you are looking at this in terms of being right for what a group like the DoD wants, and I'm looking ta it in terms of being right for a larger society. Sure, by the armed forces standards, these "baby steps" might be fine and dandy, and yes, might be their first steps towards them accepted homosexuals. However, history has shown that bullshit and unconnected discrimination is not only wrong but will be struck down in favor of progress and equality. Accepting and condoning movements in "geologic time" only strengthens the continued archaic arguments. There's been plenty leading up to this. It's time the military (and anything else) were forced to move into the modern era instead of being coddled and allowed a bunch of ancient fogies with their morals stuck in the 50's to continue making us all look like assholes on the global stage.

Say what you like, I feel I'm looking at a bigger picture than you.
(Deleted comment)
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: 100% Zombiearchmage on September 21st, 2011 01:58 pm (UTC)
Well, thank you for your excellent addition to the argument. I shall stay clean.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 01:58 pm (UTC)
Feel what you wish, and keep your rose coloured glasses clean bro.

You really didn't read anything I said, did you.
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: AMPDarchmage on September 21st, 2011 01:59 pm (UTC)
Read it all. Your continued arrogance has led to the end of it. I'll keep my glasses, you keep your blinders, we'll all get along just fine.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 02:01 pm (UTC)
I am blind to nothing Frank, and it's assumptions like that on your part that really saddens me.
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: Bruce Campbell For Presidentarchmage on September 21st, 2011 01:57 pm (UTC)
tried to edit, but too late:

Edit to add: as for "integration of policy", I'm not saying it would have been flipping a switch, much as that would be nice. I'm saying that DADT was the wrong way to go about it. Maybe it was the wrong thing done for the right reasons, maybe not. However, telling someone to fight for freedom while being denied freedom is bullshit.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 02:00 pm (UTC)
Can you argue that DADT did *NOT* result in what, as of yesterday, is currently present within the US Armed Forces?

It's entirely possible that DADT was the only way to go about it. I'm not saying that is was, but it sure did work out in the end, and was a far cry better than what was previously on the books.
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: Atomic Brainarchmage on September 21st, 2011 02:38 pm (UTC)
Did it get us to this point? Of course. That does not preclude my opinion that it was asinine and the wrong way to do it. Do I have a better way? No, and maybe this WAS the only way to do it. Doesn't make it any nicer or less bitter.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 02:44 pm (UTC)
See, that I will agree with.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 02:14 pm (UTC)
"However, telling someone to fight for freedom while being denied freedom is bullshit."

Sure is, but you're missing the part that every single person that enlisted/commissioned under DADT, or even before, were volunteers. DoD policy was made very clear from the initial processing at MEPS all the way through any armed forces career. They weren't *told* to fight for freedom, they chose to do so. If a person chooses to serve under those known terms as many did, maybe DADT wasn't as reprehensible as you think.
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: Bow Before Cthulhuarchmage on September 21st, 2011 02:41 pm (UTC)
You see that as a choice, but I don't think it is one. They were given the choice of serving under that onus or not serving at all, and my point is that this is not the way we should be acting. It IS reprehensible that we, as a country, having dealt with discrimination in the psst multiple times, would be so backwards as to not recognize it when it reared it's head again and deal with it in a more mature manner.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 02:47 pm (UTC)
Some would say it has been dealt with in a more mature manner because it took far less time to get homosexual acceptance than it did to get racial acceptance.

Granted, the original policies regarding both of those weren't acceptable, but maybe it means that the collective population is learning.
God of Thunder and Rock'n'Roll: Bacon is Meat Candyarchmage on September 21st, 2011 03:11 pm (UTC)
Perhaps so. Just hurts to see the population still so slow to learn the lessons of the past.
I like living in interesting timesdaddygod on September 21st, 2011 03:13 pm (UTC)
At least they learn though, better late than never.
Mari Adkinsmariadkins on September 20th, 2011 04:59 pm (UTC)
amen!